玛丽亚Rampa大家好，我是Maria Rampa，欢迎来到这期《重塑工程》。

你如何规划一个城市的未来?

在本期《重塑工程》节目中，新西兰Aurecon公司总经理Tracey Ryan与前奥克兰委员会首席可持续发展官、现任华盛顿州汤森港市城市经理John Mauro就规划城市未来以及他在美国、亚洲和新西兰工作并与全球各地的城镇、城市和合作伙伴合作的经验教训进行了交流。

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特蕾西雷恩:距离我们上次在Tāmaki Makaurau见面可能已经有很多年了。

约翰·毛罗。:特蕾西，很高兴来到这里。我期待我们的谈话。

Tracey Ryan:自从你离开并回到美国后，你现在是华盛顿汤森港的城市经理。想想看，当你离开的时候，新西兰在汤森德港，那里也有很多人口增长。有趣的是，从你的角度来看，你对汤森港的人口增长和人口趋势有什么期待，然后你如何通过你的工作来应对这些?

约翰·毛罗。:有一件事我觉得有点像过山车，在某种程度上，不仅仅是因为流行病，而且我一直觉得奥克兰是一个国际化的大城市，但它实际上是一个小而孤立的国家，但邻里关系非常重要，我在那里的时候试图理解奥蒂亚。事实上，我很期待再回来。但是回到美国，你会想，哇，这是一个人口众多的大国。它地理位置多样，面积很大。我所在的华盛顿州比新西兰还大。但是这个小镇，我的意思是，它是一个只有一万人的城市，居住在一个更大的区域，包括西雅图，你可以看到温哥华的灯光，和维多利亚的建筑，从这里的海滩，穿过加拿大。所以，很难理解，它是大的，是小的，是孤立的，不是吗，它是所有东西的一部分。所以，是的，我们的人口，像很多理想的地方一样在增长。它并没有大幅增长，大概每年增长1%到2%。但对于一个真正建立在西北部的第一批城市之一的小镇来说。 We were the port of call, the place where ships would come into the Western United States, before the cities of San Francisco and others really got built up. And because of that, we were expected to be an asset. And we were expected to be the West Coast location. Turned out for lots of reasons that wasn't the case. The demographics here really are steady growth upward. We're a very old community age wise, we're one of the top 10 oldest counties in the United States with a median age of about 53 years old. There's another thing to draw out. And that's a contrast between the haves and the have nots. You could see this across the world, across Aotearoa, as well. But we've got 14% of our population living below the poverty line, as well as tremendous wealth that's on display with beautiful coastal houses right on the ocean. It's such a idyllic little place, but not without its inequality. So, your question about how is it reflected in the work? Well, three main things. One is that if we want age diversity, we really need to plan for that. So parks and open space is a huge thing for us to focus on right at the moment. The second is that accessibility and even affordability of homes is really challenging, and I put it right up there almost like Auckland, we have exactly 0% rental availability and almost 0% house availability, if you want to buy something, no matter how many wads of cash you have with you. And I'd say public spaces as well, it's another thing where it shows up in our work, where how we get around and mobility is tremendously important.

特蕾西雷恩:你谈到了一些关于不平等的重要问题，比如与奥克兰的比较，在可达性和可负担性方面，最终可能没有太大的变化。想想看，和汤森港的比较，展望未来30年的远景和战略计划，汤森港如何，城市如何在未来证明其基础设施不仅能应对气候变化的影响，还能应对不平等，社会因素等社会后果。你看到了什么，约翰?

约翰·毛罗。:这是一个与世界上几乎任何地方都息息相关的问题。我很高兴能嫁给一个地理学者。所以我想了很多。但汤森港有点像一只手末端的大拇指，而我们就像是伸入大海的手臂。我们在两个半岛的尽头，三面环水。每次你下水的时候，想到气候变化是非常真实的，想到风暴潮，海平面上升，以及这些因素的结合。所以这个社区真的在思考从长远来看这意味着什么?即使是现在，即使是今年，我们正在重建被2018年的一场大风暴严重破坏的历史建筑，毫无疑问，气候变化、更强的风暴潮和更高的海平面加剧了这些破坏。所以我们和大多数地方一样，处在气候变化影响的最前沿。阻碍我们的还有一个事实，我们是一个征税小的地区，我们的基础设施有时是100多年前建成的，有时从那时起就没有得到维修或维护，想想我们100多年前修建的水线。 And so every time a large decision’s made, whether it be wastewater or stormwater or transportation or parks, it really has to be right sized, and the right investment and to think about the long term financial viability of it. So, we just for the first time since 1956, renegotiated our water agreement with a large paper company in the region. And we looked at it with an eye on viability of water resources into the next 100 years. Same thing with sewer investments along the coastline, we're thinking about sea level rise in 50 years, not just next year. And I think the upshot of all this is that, right now, we're in the middle of a grant funded mapping exercise where we're trying to work through asset mapping our municipal resources and assets, so that we know what's in the line of fire, and we could work collectively, both as a city but also with partners, the community, private businesses on how to prepare for the future, and not just brace for the impact, but possibly to plan ahead for, like they do in other parts of the world, working with water, and not just trying to defend against things like sea level rise, but to think about creative approaches to green infrastructure.

特蕾西雷恩:如你所知，在新西兰，我们的基础设施和关键基础设施存在巨大的赤字，我们正在进行重大的水利改革。所以，我们可以从世界各地学习经验，并从中学习，而不是认为我们必须自己解决所有问题。但是，你如何衡量可持续的结果呢?

约翰·毛罗。:2011年制定了气候行动计划。到2050年达到1990年水平的80%，到2020年达到1990年水平的15%。最近的一份清单证实，实际上，我们能够大幅减少排放，主要来自于固定能源，因为我们的电力供应进行了重新设计。但从数字上看，这似乎是我们社区和我们地区减排的一个巨大提升。从表面上看，这很好。当你深入挖掘时，你会发现可能有60%到70%的排放来自交通部门。这一点也没有变好。所以我马上去找我最了解的，那就是，关于排放和资产的数据是什么，思考气候，缓解和适应。这是一个复杂的故事。所以，我们需要把这些决定融入到我们所做的每件事中。 And we've started thinking about it in a structural way. We've reset up our council committees to really think about sustainability, we're rebooting engagement with stakeholders and the general public. And I'll go back to something I learned from the environment director in Stockholm, when I was there many years ago. And I just love how he positioned this around, you've got sustainable economy sustainable environment, sustainable social structures and social capital, and then you have sustainable democracy. And I really love that fourth pillar, and it's something we're thinking about quite a bit here locally.

特蕾西雷恩:如果你回顾在新西兰和Tāmaki Makaurau的时光。我相信你是奥克兰理事会的第一位首席可持续发展官。当你回首往事，你最自豪的是什么?

约翰·毛罗。:我最自豪的是能够为奥克兰议会带来一支前所未有的新团队。我很幸运，也很荣幸能够领导这个团队，真正推动跨委员会合作，与私营部门合作，与政府机构合作。这是一个团队，取得了巨大的成功，包括我离开后的许多成就，可能是在我不参与的情况下，比如奥克兰气候行动计划，城市森林，Urbanati战略，还有新西兰向奥克兰议会发行的第一笔绿色债券。这真的是充满活力和能量，建立在善意和与人们的联系上。

特蕾西雷恩:如果你要回到新西兰，突然之间，我们说，好吧，我们要再来一次，你想改变什么?

约翰·毛罗。:我肯定会更多地冲浪。我回头看新西兰，我觉得他们处于一个很好的位置，可以引领世界，而不是仅仅跟随世界。有一件事，我刚搬到那里时似乎是真的，现在更是如此。这就是密度决定命运的事情，我一直很惊讶，我可以住在CBD旁边的郊区，可以在25分钟内步行去上班，还有我的后院。我并不反对后院。我现在有一个，我喜欢它。但居住在Tāmaki Makaurau这个150万人的大社区，以及奥克兰仍在努力应对的蔓延问题。这就是交通不便的原因。这就是健康很难的原因。这就是食物沙漠存在的原因。 That's why infrastructure is harder and hard to afford. It's really hard to walk that back but if I was going to dial in anywhere it would be the form of the city itself and then right down at the individual block level, the housing stock. Andrew Eagles at New Zealand Green Building Council - what a lovely human. Healthy and clean and dry homes. They're on a quest to make sure that the housing stock in New Zealand improves. You can't feed transit in a sprawling community like you can in a dense community, you can't walk to the amenities, you can walk to or bike or whatever it might be - take the bus in a community that's more spread out. So I think I'd really double down on that almost more than anything.

特蕾西雷恩:健康的家庭只是一项基本权利，获得干净的饮用水，使用公共交通工具，我们需要继续做很多事情来推动奥克兰的发展。你在这里的时候和C40城市有很大的关系。环顾世界，你会发现谁是真正创新的，真正推动这个领域发生重大变化的人。你觉得谁是领头人?

约翰·毛罗。:从新西兰开始，我想说制定奥克兰气候行动计划。我认为，将公平和公正的过渡置于综合缓解和适应计划的中心，是真正世界级的最佳实践。很难不去想一些经典的例子，比如，哦，我们去斯堪的纳维亚半岛，做一些调查，看看哪些社区人口密集，哪些社区有很棒的步行和自行车设施，哪些社区有强烈的公平意识，性别平等，种族和社会公正。创新并不一定意味着新技术，就像你在赫尔辛基、斯德哥尔摩或哥本哈根这样的社区里走着走着就能真正体验到的东西一样。这是真正的巨大的。这就是实践中的可持续性。当你在多伦多的屋顶漫步时，你会看到同样的情况，你会看到市中心的屋顶上有一英亩的农业用地。我很感激在多伦多做了一次绿色屋顶之旅，感觉就像神圣的钼，就像，这是一个未开发的资源。不仅仅是像芝加哥市政厅那样的绿色屋顶，而是想想如何在一个人口最稠密的城市中心的农贸市场上种植食物。我和鹿特丹市长阿布塔勒布有过一两次交谈，他在谈到循环经济时很有说服力，也很鼓舞人心。 And I think his quote is something like, "Our know how is a first-class export product." And then when you think of Rotterdam as a community, you think that was the largest port in the world at one point, the largest in Europe still, and he's saying, "Yeah, we ship stuff. And a port's a big deal for us, but actually, it's our intellect and our knowledge economy that is the thing." That's pretty inspiring. You can look to places in Asia like India, where they're using micro loans and financing solar micro grids for communities of need, you can think of Shenzhen's electric bus fleet in China, happens to be where a major e bus manufacturer is, but they had something like 17,000 electric buses in that one city alone. And then I guess, landing here locally, jury's still out on whether President Biden's gonna be able to land his commitment to $400 billion of innovation in climate over the next 10 years. But locally we have somebody who was a contender for president, who's our governor, Jay Inslee, he wrote a book 15 years ago about building a clean energy economy. We have probably the most ambitious clean electricity policy, we've probably got the most inspiring Climate Commitment Act, which is Cap and Invest, which starts next year, it's pretty progressive here. And just approved in the legislature, just last month was a 16 year move ahead Washington transportation package, and it really lays the groundwork for shifting to cleaner and more efficient transportation options and driving down our emissions as a state. That state is six or seven million people and really a leader on the West Coast. And so, yes you can kind of romp around the world. But I feel grateful to have landed here where really innovative climate policy is a thing, not just at the city level, because a lot of things are so much decided above the jurisdiction of a city but at the state level as well.

特蕾西雷恩:关于大流行的一个问题是，你如何让人们回到城市，这是一个区域的想法和15分钟，但你的CDBs会变成什么?如何使它成为一个有吸引力的居住场所，以及如何以一种非常不同的方式利用所有的建筑和空间之类的东西?奥克兰委员会刚刚公布了我们的年度预算，同时就拟议的气候行动目标率进行了咨询，筹集了5.74亿美元用于投资交通、活动模式和城市森林。然后是关于谁来买单的争论。所有纳税人每周将支付约1美元12美分，企业支付更多。其中一个问题是，我们应该为可持续性定价吗?但你如何看待其他部分，或者汤森港如何资助和支付所有这些减少排放的倡议?

约翰·毛罗。:现在在奥克兰看到这样的事情发生是非常值得的。因为这需要时间，有时建立一个实际资助气候行动的案例，我想我是故意的不耐烦，或者可能是默认的。有时这对我很有帮助。但有时这很令人沮丧，我们在一段时间前试图证明，资助气候行动是改变现状的方式。碳足迹，这是一个很好的小练习，但这是石油公司的一种明显的指责练习，以分散我们的注意力，使我们无法进行系统性的改变。为改变付费将是一个真正的挑战。我刚才提到，美国总统在气候创新方面的投资，并承诺要让国会通过，但这还没有达成协议。我们的目标是到2050年实现零排放。然后是华盛顿州的Cap And investment，我认为这可能是我们对汤森港最相关的代理，因为我们有4000万美元的预算，这包括提供几乎所有服务的城市，从警察，水，下水道和交通，等等。与奥克兰相比，它的规模很小。 And that's not a cop out, that's just the funding mechanisms in a small community are not robust, like they might be in a larger community. So, what it means for establishing a state-wide emissions cap, starting January 1 next year, it covers things like industrial facilities, and fuel suppliers, and electricity generators, and such, sort of adds on to that over the years, and then encourages them to reduce emissions and provides a certain degree of offsets and creates a funding mechanism to actually invest in climate programmes. And we very much are always saying this to our state legislature, as a formal legislative agenda from the city to the state, we've been advocating for this climate act for three years now. And it's super rewarding to see it actually happen. And so now we have this mechanism that will benefit communities like ours, because for instance, we're doing a major bike and ped’ segment on one of our local roads here. And it costs about $5 million. And we put up, probably about 17% of that locally, the rest is in state and federal grants, because we just have not the ability to pay with our rates base and our tax base. So we're very interested in systemic change at higher levels of government, because it greatly impacts us here locally.

特蕾西雷恩:是的，约翰，有趣的资金和金融可能会出现在每一次关于节目和项目的对话中。部分挑战是到2030年将排放量减半。如果我们要在2050年实现经济脱碳，就应该投资于更好的基础设施。更好的部分是整个社会和企业的集体变革。但是什么才是正确的平衡呢?然后，你需要考虑的权衡是什么?

约翰·毛罗。:对，比如“让我们做所有的事情”!你知道，你必须分清轻重缓急，这就是为什么我们当地的人在想，好吧，什么才是最重要的?当我们与其他城市合作时，我们是271个城市集团的一部分，称为华盛顿城市协会，代表华盛顿州的城市。因此，我们在那里找到了自己的声音，我们的副市长在那块板子上。我们作为一个城市，投资和修复基础设施是我们的强项。所以我刚才提到的那个例子，它几乎是一个K的自行车和ped基础设施。这将会改变这个地区的面貌。这就是基础设施，我们如何利用与学区、医院和交通机构的合作，并思考我们如何在这方面做出改变。我愿意相信我们可以通过一些变革性的项目来播下种子，并真正推动集体行动。回到我之前所说的可持续民主。 I really believe in a town like ours, we have really active community members who are engaged, they want to retire here, because it's just beautiful here. And it's artsy and it's fun, and it's natural surroundings. I mean, that's a huge benefit to us to say, where do we get the right person in the right seat. And so I think by sparking this interest, and by leading by example with our infrastructure, we get people around the table. And whether it be a local business, or another agency. That's something that's deeply important to systemic change. It's about three hours until we have our city council meeting, I'm holding an award actually right now that we won at the national level for communities under 10,000 people. And it was really about multiple agencies getting together. Historically, I'll be honest, we used to fight each other like cats and dogs. And now we're good friends, because we said we can't not work together, we're in a crisis situation with climate change, inequality, housing, COVID. We can't waste a single moment, not working together. And so we created a very strong alliance between four agencies, including the city, and we set the table for community involvement and the community stepped up, it was remarkable. We had hundreds of people get involved and basically co-write a resilience plan, and happen to win a national award for it.

特蕾西雷恩:恭喜你!可持续发展目标17的一部分是围绕着团结一致的集体行动，正如你所说的，我们不能浪费任何一刻不合作。我想听听你的看法，关于中央和地方政府如何合作。我们是否错过了新西兰公司的愿景?

约翰·毛罗。:在奥克兰议会工作，这个组织的规模相当于整个社区的规模。我经常在这个社区中使用这句话，并说:“看，如果我们作为一个有大约1万人的组织工作，我们需要能够作为一个有1万人的社区一起工作，所有人都是同一个团队的一部分。”这是显而易见的，但实际上是非常具有挑战性的。当我在奥克兰议会的时候，我非常感谢中央政府。我们从环境部的气候小组借调了一个人，我们紧密合作，花了很多时间交易数据和信息。阿德恩总理主持了我们的气候研讨会。这是新西兰成为领导者的另一个原因，我不想说这是没有借口的。

特蕾西雷恩:这对我们来说是一个巨大的挑战或机会，约翰，我们要做好成为世界领袖的准备。我很高兴能参与其中。谢谢，ngā mihi nui。感谢大家今天参加我们的节目。我认为你在这里创造的那种势头，以及你旅程的延续，我们需要继续交谈、联系和学习。非常感谢你今天参加我们的节目。

约翰·毛罗。:很高兴见到你，特蕾西。非常感谢。我玩得很开心。

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玛丽亚Rampa:我们希望你喜欢这期《重塑工程》。

这是一场关于城市未来的精彩讨论，也提醒我们分享知识和经验是多么有价值。

如果你喜欢这期《重塑工程》，点击订阅苹果、谷歌播客或Spotify，不要忘记在你最喜欢的社交媒体平台上关注Aurecon，了解最新情况并加入对话。世界杯直播在线直播

下次见，谢谢收听。